From: “John Barach”
Subject: Tithing & Giving
BHers —
A couple of (repeat) questions:
- Where are you at on the issue of tithing? Jim, are you still happy with the line of argument you present in The Law of the Covenant?
- How would you recommend teaching a congregation about giving? How do you address situations where people just don’t seem to be giving much? How about situations where you think giving may be dropping because people are voting with their wallets, engaging in a form of “tithe protest” against the direction the session is heading?
John
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:11:01 +0900
From: “Ralph A. Smith”
Subject: Tithing & Giving
On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:50 AM, John Barach wrote:
2. How would you recommend teaching a congregation about giving? How do you address situations where people just don’t seem to be giving much? How about situations where you think giving may be dropping because people are voting with their wallets, engaging in a form of “tithe protest” against the direction the session is heading?
John
In our church, we followed North’s advice about separating voting privileges from membership. That way children can be full members and yet not vote. And we can allow people to join our church whatever their theological confusion — within the limits of orthodox faith. Arminians, premillennialists, and presbyterians can join our church and receive weekly communion, etc. But they cannot vote unless they fulfill the qualifications of a voting member. Those qualifications include agreement with our doctrinal distinctives (including paedocommunion), being a member of the church for at least 3 years, tc. and tithing for at least one year.
Any time a person quits tithing, for any reason, his voting privileges are gone until he has been tithing again for one year.
It seems to me that all members ought to tithe, but we have the provision in part because of the economic hardships of some members. I suspect it may often be true that their hardships are sometimes the result of less than wise stewardship, but that is not for me to judge. If a person cannot or will not tithe, they cannot vote. Voting is a form of leadership and it is restricted to those who are qualified by their faith and life. Voting determines the future of the church and is a privilege of responsibility restricted to those who show with their tithes that they take their responsibilities seriously.
I should add by the way that we do not treat all decisions as “privileged”. So, on many things the whole membership over 20 (age of adulthood) votes. But on the choice of officers, decisions about money, matters related to the church confession, etc., only those with voting privileges vote.
How can we justify this Biblically?
1) By analogy from Paul’s restrictions concerning charity. Paul distinguished between elderly members of the local church who were worthy to receive charity and those who were not. He set forth very strict criteria for someone to be a recipient of church funds. But he did not restrict membership in any such way. As soon as a person professed faith, he was baptized and received into membership. But that did not grant that person full access to every service provided by the church. If access to charity can be restricted, so can voting privileges.
2) By the analogy of the authority of the elders of the church and the elders of the city. Elders of the church, like the elders of the city, are given administrative authority. They are functioning within the limits of that authority when they make decisions about how to govern the church in practical matters. Thus, we have made some practical administrative decisions. 1) In a mobile society in which people hardly know each other, membership for 3 years gives us a chance to get to know the people who have come into our church and them a chance to know us. 2) In a society in which financial responsibility — and every other sort of responsibility — tends not to be taken too seriously, restrictions that require financial responsibility seem appropriate and wise. Elders have the responsibility to lead the local church to maturity and this seems like one step in that direction. 3) etc.
There are six other points on the Biblical justification of this approach to tithing that I cannot fully explain here, but Peter will set them forth completely in his new book on tithing.
Ralph
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:22:33 -0800
From: “Reformation Covenant Church”
Subject: Tithing & Giving
John,
Four words: Show me the money!
Seriously, we have a line in our membership vows at RCC that states that members will “Faithfully give God His tithe.” That way the elders have some leverage. :-)
If you don’t have this, not sure what you can do except point to the biblical obligation of the tithe. Might tie into a lesson on submission and respecting authorities in general. The ends don’t justify the means, and submission is not submission if you only do what you agree with. I would think that this would be an important lesson for men to know . . . especially if they expect their wives to be submissive to them! Beyond that, the tithe is ulitmately submission to God and a means of giving thanks for everything that comes from Him. You know all this, but this is my two cents.
Back to lurking. . .
Isaac Mahar, Administrative Assistant to the Officers
Reformation Covenant Church
1201 John Quincy Adams St.
Oregon City, OR 97045
503.656.9444; Fax 503.650.1294
Website: www.ReformationCovenant.org
Email: Office@ReformationCovenant.org
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:27:36 -0600
From: burke
Subject: Tithing & Giving
1. Where are you at on the issue of tithing?
I’m all for it!
Jim, are you still happy with the line of argument you present in _The Law of the Covenant_?
2. How would you recommend teaching a congregation about giving?
In Sunday school, new member’s class, economic conference; have Jim come and mention it!
How do you address situations where people just don’t seem to be giving much? How about situations where you think giving may be dropping because people are voting with their wallets, engaging in a form of “tithe protest” against the direction the session is heading?
I teach that the tithe is the Lords, and they don’t have his permission to withhold it. But, if they don’t want to give it here, they are free to leave and go elsewhere and tithe. But they must tithe to the Lord via the local church.
Burke
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:51:22 -0600
From: Douglas Jordan
Subject: Tithing & Giving
John, this post might answer that question:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bibhorizon/message/33243
That is just a response to the earlier thread that starts with post 33210, so you might want to start there.
Doug
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:55:22 -0600
From: Douglas Jordan
Subject: Tithing & Giving
Okay, it’s late and I’m slow . . . I just noticed that you’d been a part of that earlier discussion, so your questions have it in mind. Oops. Well, maybe my post numbers will help the newbie groupers to find the earlier discussion a little easier, since yahoo searching certainly won’t help them!
Doug
