by James Jordan
Well, John, sounds good to me. I’ve said for years that paedocommunion and non-pc cannot live together any more than infant and adult baptism. And by returning to pc, we drive back 1000 years, and definitely back before the Reformation. We also don’t like the rationalism of the “grammatical historical method” (a good way of weeding out about 95% of what the text means). I — and since BH is me, we — don’t think metrical psalms are real psalms and think Calvin and the Reformed tradition made a huge mistake by substituting metrical psalms for real ones — a gnostic move, since the assumption is that the IDEAS of the text are all that matter, and not the shape thereof. I could go on. . . .
Oh, it’s true enough: We depart from the whole Reformation tradition at certain pretty basic points. It’s no good pretending otherwise. I think the PCA is perfectly within its rights to say no to all BH types. We are NOT traditional presbyterians. The PCA suffers us within itself, but we are poison to traditional presbyterianism. We are new wine, and the PCA is an old skin. So, for the sake of the people we are called to minister to, we do our best. But we don’t really “belong” there.
I mean, think about it. Would any of you seek ordination in a Baptist denomination? No. Then why do you seek ordination in non-paedocommuning Presbyterian/Reformed denominations? Don’t tell me that these aren’t the same question, because at the practical level, American presbyterianism is just “Baptist light.” That’s what Banner of Truth Calvinism is, and why it’s been Reformed Baptists who most appreciate it. That what Duncan is. That’s what the So. Presbyterian tradition is. That’s what American individualist conversionist presbyterianism is: Baptists who sprinkle babies.
I can’t really put feet on this, but I “feel” sure that the Reformation tradition is rationalistic precisely because it is anti-pc. Or maybe better, these are part of one complex. Being anti-pc was the greatest mistake of all the Reformers (except Musculus, and who cares about him?). This mistake is part of the heart of the Reformation; they knew about pc and rejected it. This has affected, or else helps be a part of, all kinds of things, like piety, liturgy, and hermeneutics.
So, why are you trying to get ordained presbyterian? Why not seek to get ordained Baptist? There are a whole lot more baptists out there. A bigger pond. Larger sphere of influence.
Well, it’s because the baptists won’t have us, and so far the presbys will. But there’s no reason why the presbys should receive us, since sacramentally speaking we are NOT Reformed and NOT presbyterian.
I’m a little bit sympathetic with Duncan & Co. when they suspect some of you guys are not being honest when you try to show that you’re just good traditional Reformed guys. I guess it’s a good thing I did not make it to the Knox Seminary discussion, because I would have openly said, “I’m not on the same page as Calvin and the Reformation in these regards.” Showing that the Reformed tradition is wider and muddier than Duncan wants it to be is fine, but the fact is that if you believe in pc, you’re not in the Reformed tradition at all in a very significant and profound sense. No more than you’re Baptists.
JBJ >:-}
James B. Jordan
Director, Biblical Horizons
Box 1096
Niceville, FL 32578
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a word from the godfather
“I just thought the juxtaposition of the Keller quotes with Jordan’s/Leithart’s was interesting and worthy of discussion — especially since some sort of synthesis seems likely. It’s been at the back of my mind as a point for discussion for years.” — Rich Lusk
“Another one of my favorite guys has also taken down some of his stuff and has retired from the blogosphere because it is so, you know, mean. Translated from the FV, that means that they’ve been uncovered and they need to lie low until the dust settles and institutional inertia can take effect. Hiding what you really are behind protestations that others are breaking the 9th? How precious is that? Evidently, the 9th means exactly what they say it means — nothing more and nothing less. Truth hurts. Maybe if the FV [men] worried more about the true gospel and less about the color of their gowns, sashes and stoles, we wouldn’t be where we are now.” — Eileen
“Generally one doesn’t dog the Westminster Assembly as ‘weak’ and get along well in Presby circles. . . . Now if we could just get everybody to read the latest issue of Credenda.” — DP Cassidy
a well-documented history
book review
“Well, the inevitable finally happened with content from the 2005 Biblical Horizons list recently made public on an anonymous Yahoo blog. I don’t know how much material from Biblical Horizons will make its way to the web, but what has come out thus far has proven embarrassing to some, including a dear friend within my own church.” — David Bayly
“Yet, not everyone has seen the FV for what it is. Some FV advocates have protested that there is no difference between what they promote and Westminsterian Calvinism. Others have asserted, absurdly, that there is no ‘FV movement.’ The BH list shows those things to be false, and, in that, it is useful. One would hope that TE’s Wilkins, Meyers and Leithart made these emails available to the various committees charged with examining their views.” — Ken Pierce
“Yet, not everyone has seen the FV for what it is. Some FV advocates have protested that there is no difference between what they promote and Westminsterian Calvinism. Others have asserted, absurdly, that there is no ‘FV movement.’ The BH list shows those things to be false, and, in that, it is useful. One would hope that TE’s Wilkins, Meyers and Leithart made these emails available to the various committees charged with examining their views.” — Ken Pierce
“MLK was a pretty sorry specimen of humanity. . . As a person, MLK was trash and he’s in hell.” — James B. Jordan
helpful quotes
“. . . nothing you reprinted here differs from what I have said for 35+ years.” — James B. Jordan
“I — and since BH is me, we. . .”
— James B. Jordan
“It shows us many, many things about the FV that the critics have been saying all along, and Jordan agrees.” — Pastor Lane Keister
“. . . the post above I think is overstated, rhetorically unhelpful, historically misguided and wrong. In short, I disagree. . .” — Douglas Wilson
“Jim’s statement is misleading and wrong, and I wish he would retract it.” — Douglas Wilson
“I didn’t say ‘recant’ . . . but rather ‘retract,’ which is what somebody should do with any mistake, whether 30 years old or not.” — Douglas Wilson
“This is what happens when a guy who knows just enough to be dangerous admits the truth, and a guy who knows even less refuses to do the same.”
— Ron Henzel
“well something seems to have gone off the rails” — Paul Duggan
“I’m still confused.” — Mark Horne
“I — and since BH is me, we. . .”
— James B. Jordan
“It shows us many, many things about the FV that the critics have been saying all along, and Jordan agrees.” — Pastor Lane Keister
“. . . the post above I think is overstated, rhetorically unhelpful, historically misguided and wrong. In short, I disagree. . .” — Douglas Wilson
“Jim’s statement is misleading and wrong, and I wish he would retract it.” — Douglas Wilson
“I didn’t say ‘recant’ . . . but rather ‘retract,’ which is what somebody should do with any mistake, whether 30 years old or not.” — Douglas Wilson
“This is what happens when a guy who knows just enough to be dangerous admits the truth, and a guy who knows even less refuses to do the same.”
— Ron Henzel
“well something seems to have gone off the rails” — Paul Duggan
“I’m still confused.” — Mark Horne
The YAHOO! Cam captured James Jordan’s reaction to the news that his beloved list went public:
“If you want to keep something secret, don’t put it on the internet.”
— Johannes Weslianus
“The most interesting aspect of the discussions has been the way they regard and describe their critics. I won’t try to describe the rhetoric. It’s better that you read it for yourself.”
— R. Scott Clark
— Johannes Weslianus
“The most interesting aspect of the discussions has been the way they regard and describe their critics. I won’t try to describe the rhetoric. It’s better that you read it for yourself.”
— R. Scott Clark
NEW WINE — IT'S POISON!
“Oh, it’s true enough: We depart from the whole Reformation tradition at certain pretty basic points. It’s no good pretending otherwise. I think the PCA is perfectly within its rights to say no to all BH types. We are NOT traditional presbyterians. The PCA suffers us within itself, but we are poison to traditional presbyterianism.” — James B. Jordan