Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:05:40 -0500
From: Chris Horton
Subject: Central Carolina Presbytery & AAPC
Okay news last week from Western Carolina, but I just returned from Central Carolina Presbytery meeting in Matthews NC, and one of the actions taken was to send correspondence to ask Louisiana Presbytery to investigate FV theology and AAPC and if necessary, take action against the senior pastor and session there. Andy Webb was in attendance and it seemed the instigator behind the thing, but the vote to do it was unanimous without discussion except a small change in wording.
blah
Chris Horton
________________
Peru Mission
864.335.9748 (h)
864.593.7967 (m)
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Thoughts on AAPC
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:45:17 -0600
From: “James B. Jordan”
Subject: thoughts on AAPC
Dan,
This came dated 1 January 1970, so I’m reposting it to BH. Just found it.
JBJ
At 12:29 PM 1/1/1970, you wrote:
James B. Jordan
Director, Biblical Horizons
Box 1096
Niceville, FL 32578
From: “James B. Jordan”
Subject: thoughts on AAPC
Dan,
This came dated 1 January 1970, so I’m reposting it to BH. Just found it.
JBJ
At 12:29 PM 1/1/1970, you wrote:
BHrethren,
Some initial thoughts about the AAPC Pastors Conference:
I hope Drs. Wright and Gaffin continue to interact via email, etc.
- 1. It was great to meet many of you on the list! (I know many of you were there that I didn’t get to meet — next time)! I wish we had more time to talk!
- Steve Wilkins and AAPC did a phenomenal job of hosting the conference! Many thanks to you, Steve, and all the workers!
- I think the conference was a landmark both in terms of the content and in terms of the way the discussion was conducted between Gaffin and Wright. It was a great example of how these discussions ought to take place, and hopefully will pave the way for future discussions of the same sort.
- A large part of the strain the Reformed churches are undergoing on so called FV and NPP issues is that we are trying to filter everything through and fit everything into a 17th century confession. Imagine the difficulty of doing that in other fields, such as science. This doesn’t make the WS bad, or lessen my love for them, it is just to acknowledge that they express 17th century British theology, not a once-for-all-completed statement of faith.
- I enjoyed a number of conversations with Norman Shepherd. He was very positive about Wright’s teaching, while also maintaining that Paul teaches the imputation of Christ’s righteousness for justification.
Blessings,
Dan Dillard
P.S. You all saw John Robbins, didn’t you?
James B. Jordan
Director, Biblical Horizons
Box 1096
Niceville, FL 32578
Was this review helpful to you?
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:36:31 -0600
From: Douglas Jordan
Subject: Was this review helpful to you?
A while ago a number of us voted regarding the helpfulness of the Amazon reviews of The Federal Vision.
If anyone's interested, there are a few new reviews posted. Looks like Oupensky-fan ingrid888 seems to have found at least 6 people to go across all the reviews and vote "helpful" for the 1-stars and "unhelpful" the 5-stars.
FWIW,
Doug
From: Douglas Jordan
Subject: Was this review helpful to you?
A while ago a number of us voted regarding the helpfulness of the Amazon reviews of The Federal Vision.
If anyone's interested, there are a few new reviews posted. Looks like Oupensky-fan ingrid888 seems to have found at least 6 people to go across all the reviews and vote "helpful" for the 1-stars and "unhelpful" the 5-stars.
FWIW,
Doug
Another Forwarded BH Post
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:41:13 -0800
From: “Dale Courtney”
Subject: Another Forwarded BH Post
BHren,
I wanted to alert you to yet another BH post that has been forwarded elsewhere and posted publicly.
The original post was from 29 May 2003:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bibhorizon/message/21452
The post (by Wilson) was just posted publicly over at
mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2005-January/013490.html
I don’t know where the leak is, but we need to make it stop.
pax,
Dale
From: “Dale Courtney”
Subject: Another Forwarded BH Post
BHren,
I wanted to alert you to yet another BH post that has been forwarded elsewhere and posted publicly.
The original post was from 29 May 2003:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bibhorizon/message/21452
The post (by Wilson) was just posted publicly over at
mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2005-January/013490.html
I don’t know where the leak is, but we need to make it stop.
pax,
Dale
Mark’s Transfer
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:17:38 -0600
From: Jeff Meyers
Subject: Mo Presbytery
I’m leaving with Mark for presbytery in a few moments. I just wanted to remind you all to pray for us. He should be on the floor in the middle of the afternoon.
Thanks!
JJM
From: Jeff Meyers
Subject: Mo Presbytery
I’m leaving with Mark for presbytery in a few moments. I just wanted to remind you all to pray for us. He should be on the floor in the middle of the afternoon.
Thanks!
JJM
Pray for me (again)
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:10:32 -0700
From: “Tim Gallant”
Subject: Pray for me (again)
BHrethren,
I just came home from a congregational meeting. Some of you may remember a note last fall requesting prayer for my situation in the local church. There is a dominant family that has a number of unhappy people (some more so than others). It centers around me, at least on the surface. There remains a complaint that my sermons are too difficult, but there are other matters too. Meanwhile, a goodly number of people are extremely happy with my work here (and some of them express puzzlement about the difficulty complaint, since they say their 10 year old children benefit from my sermons). For myself, I am willing to say that I am still learning to simplify and need to learn a whole lot more in communication, and insofar as that it is true, there is probably cause for some of the concerns. But there is much more involved than that, which I can scarcely begin to detail. Otherwise, the depth of emotion involved on the part of some would be inexplicable.
From: “Tim Gallant”
Subject: Pray for me (again)
BHrethren,
I just came home from a congregational meeting. Some of you may remember a note last fall requesting prayer for my situation in the local church. There is a dominant family that has a number of unhappy people (some more so than others). It centers around me, at least on the surface. There remains a complaint that my sermons are too difficult, but there are other matters too. Meanwhile, a goodly number of people are extremely happy with my work here (and some of them express puzzlement about the difficulty complaint, since they say their 10 year old children benefit from my sermons). For myself, I am willing to say that I am still learning to simplify and need to learn a whole lot more in communication, and insofar as that it is true, there is probably cause for some of the concerns. But there is much more involved than that, which I can scarcely begin to detail. Otherwise, the depth of emotion involved on the part of some would be inexplicable.
OVP and Warfield List
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:33:53From: William Smith
Subject: OVP and Warfield List
Just for clarification: both Steve and Rich were on my resume as references. They also knew that our session had adopted the position paper with AAPC on Covenant, Baptism and Election. The Church knows my sympathies. I don’t want anyone on this list to think that I distanced myself from Steve and Rich. In fact (and please remember not to pass this on to anyone), one of the members of the pulpit cmte left the church because of my positions. As I said, the man who posted is not very well informed about these issues.
Just as a humorous aside, one of the young ladies in the Church thinks its cool that I am friends with Steve Wilkins. I could have been Bozo the Clown and it wouldn’t have mattered to her. She’s a big fan of Steve. She wants me as her pastor just so she can talk to Steve!
Bill
FPC Jackson / Committee Report
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:40:01 -0600
From: “Jonathan Barlow”
Subject: fpc jackson / committee report
Anyone know why FPC Jackson took down the committee report from the MS Valley Presbytery committee on the Federal Vision?
From: “Jonathan Barlow”
Subject: fpc jackson / committee report
Anyone know why FPC Jackson took down the committee report from the MS Valley Presbytery committee on the Federal Vision?
Apostasy Passages
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:17:16 +0000
From: “Jamison Galt”
Subject: Apostasy Passages
Bhers,
I’m helping a Covenant seminary professor, Robert Peterson, with research for a forthcoming book of his on Perseverance and Apostasy. The first step in my assignment is to locate all the Biblical passages that seem to posit some sort of genuine apostasy. I’m especially looking for passages beyond the standard ones mentioned in a discussion of this sort. Thought you all would be a good place to start! Can you help? Thanks — Jamison Galt
From: “Jamison Galt”
Subject: Apostasy Passages
Bhers,
I’m helping a Covenant seminary professor, Robert Peterson, with research for a forthcoming book of his on Perseverance and Apostasy. The first step in my assignment is to locate all the Biblical passages that seem to posit some sort of genuine apostasy. I’m especially looking for passages beyond the standard ones mentioned in a discussion of this sort. Thought you all would be a good place to start! Can you help? Thanks — Jamison Galt
Machen Myth
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:21:19 EST
From: Calvin3Max@aol.com
Subject: Re: PCRT
In a message dated 1/17/2005 12:44:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, rwlusk@bellsouth.net writes:
Perhaps the emotional attachment arises from the fabled story about Machen’s words near his death about active obedience. I admit to being touched by the story when I first heard it. However, my nine years in Charistmatic circles have jaded my views of experiential testimonies. I smile, appreciate the moment, and then think through the experience to see what really is happening. I had one RC Charismatic give a breathy testimony how the bread in communion had the texture of flesh and the wine tasted like blood to him, since he had received the Baptism of the HS. Presbyterians have their mythic stories too!
What made me remember this Machen connection was conversation I had with a CTS student in my congregation. He quoted this Machen story with wide eyed wonder as he talked about his passion for the concepts of Christ’s Passive and Active obedience. Myths live on. When you challenge them don’t expect a reasoned response.
Eric
From: Calvin3Max@aol.com
Subject: Re: PCRT
In a message dated 1/17/2005 12:44:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, rwlusk@bellsouth.net writes:
If you get a chance to talk to him, perhaps you can ask: Why is it better to have the imputed active obedience of Christ than to share in his resurrection verdict? What does the former give that the latter lacks? This is the question I’ve posed repeatedly to Horton, with no real answer beyond quotations from the confessions (which provide him dubious support at best). Maybe I should just email Rick myself . . . .
RL
Perhaps the emotional attachment arises from the fabled story about Machen’s words near his death about active obedience. I admit to being touched by the story when I first heard it. However, my nine years in Charistmatic circles have jaded my views of experiential testimonies. I smile, appreciate the moment, and then think through the experience to see what really is happening. I had one RC Charismatic give a breathy testimony how the bread in communion had the texture of flesh and the wine tasted like blood to him, since he had received the Baptism of the HS. Presbyterians have their mythic stories too!
What made me remember this Machen connection was conversation I had with a CTS student in my congregation. He quoted this Machen story with wide eyed wonder as he talked about his passion for the concepts of Christ’s Passive and Active obedience. Myths live on. When you challenge them don’t expect a reasoned response.
Eric
Duncan Remarks
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:44:15 -0600
From: Mark Horne
Subject: Duncan remarks
I just blogged this and then immediately removed it. I *think* that this can only be read by the direct link below and is otherwise unavailable. (If you know differently, let me know).
I’d like comments on my tone. And in general, am I supposed to not share these thoughts? What should I do?
From: Mark Horne
Subject: Duncan remarks
I just blogged this and then immediately removed it. I *think* that this can only be read by the direct link below and is otherwise unavailable. (If you know differently, let me know).
I’d like comments on my tone. And in general, am I supposed to not share these thoughts? What should I do?
Report From Ohio Valley
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:08:05 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
From: William Smith
Subject: Report from Ohio Valley
I see that Rich told y’all the good news about my transfer to OVP. For those of you who knew that it was coming and prayed, thank you. I didn’t realize that Chris Harper was being pressured. (Glad I didn’t know it.) Chris did a superior job. I could tell he had heard a lot of stuff — stuff that only people in our presbytery would know. But he was quite judicious.
From: William Smith
Subject: Report from Ohio Valley
I see that Rich told y’all the good news about my transfer to OVP. For those of you who knew that it was coming and prayed, thank you. I didn’t realize that Chris Harper was being pressured. (Glad I didn’t know it.) Chris did a superior job. I could tell he had heard a lot of stuff — stuff that only people in our presbytery would know. But he was quite judicious.
So Bizarre
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:29:24 -0600
From: Mark Horne
Subject: so bizarre
I realize this is old news for some of you (all of you?) but I am working through Lig Duncan’s essay on “True Communion.” I had no idea that he would allow a few essays on the web to become his raison d’etre in what is supposed to be a scholarly collection of essays. Why not deal in detail with Wallace (rather than a couple of jabs), Gerrish, and Robert Letham/Nevin? Why not interact with Clowney and Ferguson (he mentions Ferguson but doesn’t tell us what he actually says)?
Instead he gets all up in arms about a bunch of web articles. Amazing. I think he keeps mentioning Joel’s on “baptismal regeneration” not because it is relevant to the Lord’s Supper but because it allows him to keep the words “baptismal regeneration” in front of his readers.
And he claims that his targets (me? Nevin?) believe Christ to be corporally present in the Lord’s Supper. What garbage!
I am a fool to be worried about him. He has lost already. Nothing else explains these tactics. The most he can hope for is a small remnant denomination in the Southeast.
Mark
From: Mark Horne
Subject: so bizarre
I realize this is old news for some of you (all of you?) but I am working through Lig Duncan’s essay on “True Communion.” I had no idea that he would allow a few essays on the web to become his raison d’etre in what is supposed to be a scholarly collection of essays. Why not deal in detail with Wallace (rather than a couple of jabs), Gerrish, and Robert Letham/Nevin? Why not interact with Clowney and Ferguson (he mentions Ferguson but doesn’t tell us what he actually says)?
Instead he gets all up in arms about a bunch of web articles. Amazing. I think he keeps mentioning Joel’s on “baptismal regeneration” not because it is relevant to the Lord’s Supper but because it allows him to keep the words “baptismal regeneration” in front of his readers.
And he claims that his targets (me? Nevin?) believe Christ to be corporally present in the Lord’s Supper. What garbage!
I am a fool to be worried about him. He has lost already. Nothing else explains these tactics. The most he can hope for is a small remnant denomination in the Southeast.
Mark
PCRT
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 19:06:27 -0000
From: “garver”
Subject: PCRT
I just got the brochure for the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology in the mail. It looks like Lig Duncan isn’t going to be speaking in Philadelphia — only in the Phoenix and Indianapolis locations. I’m vaguely disappointed. I would have liked to have heard and/or met this fellow.
Where he is speaking, his topics remain the same as previously advertised: [1] One People — Christianity’s prescription for unity and peace among men; and [2] One Way — Christianity’s demand for obedient disciplehip on the way to eternal life.
There’s some kind of sad irony in that.
I also see that Rick Phillips is doing a seminar entitled, “The Imputation of Christ’s Righteousness: Current Denials and Biblical Affirmations.” Hopefully he’ll just stick with Robert Gundry as his target, but I somehow doubt it.
Perhaps I can try to ferret out what he’ll be speaking on prior to the conference (the first one is April 1–3) and maybe even exert some positive influence. I dunno.
joel
From: “garver”
Subject: PCRT
I just got the brochure for the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology in the mail. It looks like Lig Duncan isn’t going to be speaking in Philadelphia — only in the Phoenix and Indianapolis locations. I’m vaguely disappointed. I would have liked to have heard and/or met this fellow.
Where he is speaking, his topics remain the same as previously advertised: [1] One People — Christianity’s prescription for unity and peace among men; and [2] One Way — Christianity’s demand for obedient disciplehip on the way to eternal life.
There’s some kind of sad irony in that.
I also see that Rick Phillips is doing a seminar entitled, “The Imputation of Christ’s Righteousness: Current Denials and Biblical Affirmations.” Hopefully he’ll just stick with Robert Gundry as his target, but I somehow doubt it.
Perhaps I can try to ferret out what he’ll be speaking on prior to the conference (the first one is April 1–3) and maybe even exert some positive influence. I dunno.
joel
Greenville conferences
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:06:36 -0500
From: Chris Horton
Subject: Greenville conferences
Anybody want to visit sunny Greenville SC in March? :|
www.woodruffroad.com/
www.gpts.edu/conference/index.html
----------
Chris Horton
________________
Peru Mission
864.335.9748 (h)
864.593.7967 (m)
www.perumission.org
www.hortonfamilyupdates.info
From: Chris Horton
Subject: Greenville conferences
Anybody want to visit sunny Greenville SC in March? :|
www.woodruffroad.com/
www.gpts.edu/conference/index.html
----------
Chris Horton
________________
Peru Mission
864.335.9748 (h)
864.593.7967 (m)
www.perumission.org
www.hortonfamilyupdates.info
A Small Victory in One Presbytery
From: Todd and Lisa Harris
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 5:44 PM
Subject: a small victory in one presbytery
Hey, here’s some good news from Dale Smith, BH-oriented pastor of Colleyville PCA, North Texas Presbytery.
Todd HarrisFort Worth
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 5:44 PM
Subject: a small victory in one presbytery
Hey, here’s some good news from Dale Smith, BH-oriented pastor of Colleyville PCA, North Texas Presbytery.
Todd HarrisFort Worth
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