From: “Jamison Galt”
Subject: Apostasy Passages
Bhers,
I’m helping a Covenant seminary professor, Robert Peterson, with research for a forthcoming book of his on Perseverance and Apostasy. The first step in my assignment is to locate all the Biblical passages that seem to posit some sort of genuine apostasy. I’m especially looking for passages beyond the standard ones mentioned in a discussion of this sort. Thought you all would be a good place to start! Can you help? Thanks — Jamison Galt
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:29:31 -0600
From: Mark Horne
Subject: Apostasy Passages
I think Ezekiel 18 needs to be dealt with.
BTW, have we met in person yet. I know I’ve seen you but didn’t put it together until just now.
Mark
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:23:55 -0000
From: “garver”
Subject: Apostasy Passages
Jamison Galt wrote:
I’m helping a Covenant seminary professor, Robert Peterson, with research for a forthcoming book of his on Perseverance and Apostasy. The first step in my assignment is to locate all the Biblical passages that seem to posit some sort of genuine apostasy.
I assume the Hebrews passages are all already in view.
Here’s a partial list:
[1] 1 Samuel 10:6–7, 9–11; 13:7–14; 15:20–2, 35; 16:14 — Saul was anointed by the servant of God and received the Holy Spirit in power, prophesying, being made a new man with a changed heart, since God was with him; yet Saul later began to turn from the ways of the Lord, culminating in his rebellion in regard to the Amalekites and so God was grieved by Saul’s rebellion and took his Spirit from him
[2] Matthew 7:22 — those who prophesy, cast out demons, and work wonders in the name of Christ, though they manifest gifts of the Spirit, are told “I never knew you”
[3] Matthew 13:20 — those who receive the word with joy fall away from that temporary faith
[4] Matthew 18:27 — the unjust steward who had received forgiveness of his debts nonetheless loses that forgiveness and is thrown into prison
[5] Matthew 21:43 — those who possess the kingdom of God have it taken away
[6] Mathew 25:14ff — those who share in God’s riches are later deprived of them
[7] Luke 8:13 — there are those who loose their belief in the Gospel
[8] Luke 8:6–8, 11, 13–15 — there are those who have new life from the seed of the Word but later lose it
[9] Luke 8:14 — there are those who bear fruit from the sprouting seed of the word, though not to maturity, and subsequently die
[10] John 15:1–10 — there are those who are grafted in as branches in Christ, but later, when no fruit comes, are pruned off and thrown into the fire
[11] Acts 8:13 — Simon Magus is said to have believed the Gospel, but later falls away
[10] 1 Corinthians 9:27 — Paul suggests that if he is unfaithful that he, even after having led others to Christ, will himself be disqualified
[12] 1 Corinthians 10:1–11; 12:13; 10:11 — just as Israel had been baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea and all were made to drink the same spiritual drink, so also, speaks to the church at Corinth as those who by one Spirit were all baptized into one Body and were made to drink one Spirit (the prooftexts of the Westminster Confession of Faith apply this text to the visible church; XXV.ii); Paul concludes, let those of us who think we stand, take heed lest we fall
[13] Galatians 5:1–4 — those who possess the grace of liberty in Christ are warned of falling away from grace
[14] Colossians 2:18; 3:24–25 — those having an inheritance and reward might be disqualified if led astray
[15] 1 Thessalonians 4:7–8 — those who possess God and the gift of the Holy Spirit might yet reject it
[16] 1 Timothy 1:18-20 — some have suffered shipwreck in the faith
[17] Hebrew 3:12–14 — some who are partakers of Christ are warned against turning away from God
[18] Hebrews 6:4–7 — those who were once enlightened, partaking of the heavenly gift, sharing in the Holy Spirit, partaking of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come, who have once repented, having Christ’s work of the cross applied to them once, and who drank in the “rain of God”, might yet fall away
[19] Hebrews 10:26–29 — those who have knowledge of the truth and have been sanctified by the blood of Christ, might yet lose it
[20] Hebrews 12:15–17 — those who have the grace of God and a birthright giving them title to the inheritance, might yet lose it
[21] Hebrews 12:22–25 — those who are part of the heavenly Jerusalem, sprinkled by Jesus’ blood, are warned against apostasy
[22] 2 Peter 1:9 — there are those who were cleansed from old sins but are now apostate
[23] 2 Peter 2:1 — there are those who have been bought by the Lord who are now apostate
[24] 2 Peter 2:20 — thses are those who have once escaped the pollutions of this world and who have knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, knowing the way of righteousness, and are now apostate
[25] Jude 21 — the audience is told to keep themselves in the love of God, implying the possibility of falling out of it
[26] Revelation 2—3 — the seven letters to the seven churches also allude to a wide range of covenant blessings which those who later apostatize possess for a time, even warning that their names might be blotted out of the book of life
joel
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:53:05 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Scott Linn
Subject: Apostasy Passages
Greetings,
[1] 1 Samuel 10:6–7, 9–11; 13:7–14; 15:20–2, 35; 16:14 — Saul was anointed by the servant of God and received the Holy Spirit in power, prophesying, being made a new man with a changed heart, since God was with him; yet Saul later began to turn from the ways of the Lord, culminating in his rebellion in regard to the Amalekites and so God was grieved by Saul’s rebellion and took his Spirit from him
This came up in Sunday School. A fill-in priest made a distinction between having the Holy Spirit within (salvation) and upon (empowerment). He saw the empowerment being taken away from Saul, not the salvation. Didn’t sound right to me, but it was an intertaining class.
Scott Linn
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:06:04 -0000
From: “garver”
Subject: Apostasy Passages
Scott Linn wrote:
This came up in Sunday School. A fill-in priest made a distinction between having the Holy Spirit within (salvation) and upon (empowerment). He saw the empowerment being taken away from Saul, not the salvation. Didn’t sound right to me, but it was an intertaining class.
The stronger argument might be that the Spirit that Saul received was simply empowerment unto service/office and never entailed salvation one way or another. The loss of the Spirit was the loss of office, not salvation. Then one could maintain that Saul was never saved. Given how Saul died and how it is described, it’s difficult to see him as saved.
I can imagine that someone might reply that when God works in a person’s life to save him, that salvation has a specific shape that uniquely belongs to that person, so that Saul’s faithfully serving God as king of Israel would have been part of the way of salvation for him. Thus loss of office and the Spirit who empowered him unto the office would be tantamount to loss of salvation.
Then there’s the whole typological level of the Saul story in that it, on one hand, recapitulates the sin of Adam, and, on the other hand, points forward to that better kingship of David and David’s messianic son and seed, Jesus Christ. In Christ, we are kings like David in the messiah, “little Christs,” but if we devolve into Sauls all is lost.
A Calvinistic position could counter that while some take on the identity of David-Jesus in Christ and perhaps even live some degree in terms of it, their later apostasy reveals that they were Sauls all along.
joel
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 09:32:46 -0700
From: “Tim Gallant”
Subject: Apostasy Passages
Joel wrote,
The stronger argument might be that the Spirit that Saul received was simply empowerment unto service/office and never entailed salvation one way or another. The loss of the Spirit was the loss of office, not salvation. Then one could maintain that Saul was never saved. Given how Saul died and how it is described, it’s difficult to see him as saved.
I can imagine that someone might reply that when God works in a person’s life to save him, that salvation has a specific shape that uniquely belongs to that person, so that Saul’s faithfully serving God as king of Israel would have been part of the way of salvation for him. Thus loss of office and the Spirit who empowered him unto the office would be tantamount to loss of salvation.
Then there’s the whole typological level of the Saul story in that it, on one hand, recapitulates the sin of Adam, and, on the other hand, points forward to that better kingship of David and David’s messianic son and seed, Jesus Christ. In Christ, we are kings like David in the messiah, “little Christs,” but if we devolve into Sauls all is lost.
A Calvinistic position could counter that while some take on the identity of David-Jesus in Christ and perhaps even live some degree in terms of it, their later apostasy reveals that they were Sauls all along.
***********
In defense of the latter position, God assures David what He did not assure Saul (and in fact the assurance is in direct contrast to Saul): that He will not cast away David or his heirs as He did to Saul (2 Sam 7.15). On the other hand, if we are to tie this to salvation, we can scarcely apply it to all of David’s heirs unless we are extreme liberal in our assessment of salvation! (And if we are, then we run up against the Saul issue again — if e.g. Ahaz was saved, why not Saul?)
A very complex subject, obviously.
tim
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:42:04 -0000
From: “garver”
Subject: Apostasy Passages
Tim Gallant wrote:
In defense of the latter position, God assures David what He did not assure Saul (and in fact the assurance is in direct contrast to Saul): that He will not cast away David or his heirs as He did to Saul (2 Sam 7.15). On the other hand, if we are to tie this to salvation, we can scarcely apply it to all of David’s heirs unless we are extreme liberal in our assessment of salvation! (And if we are, then we run up against the Saul issue again — if e.g. Ahaz was saved, why not Saul?)
A very complex subject, obviously.
And recall David’s prayer, “take not your holy Spirit from me,” a very pregnant phrase against the background of Saul’s apostasy.
One could also reply that not all of David’s seed are truly David’s seed. Some turned out to be the “seed” of Saul.
joel
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:11:14 -0500
From: “Brian D. Nolder”
Subject: Apostasy Passages
Add Col. 1:21–23 (esp. v. 23). Also, Rom. 11 (cut off from the tree).
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:33:15 -0600
From: mifarley@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Apostasy Passages
[12] 1 Corinthians 10:1–11; 12:13; 10:11 — just as Israel had been baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea and all were made to drink the same spiritual drink, so also, speaks to the church at Corinth as those who by one Spirit were all baptized into one Body and were made to drink one Spirit (the prooftexts of the Westminster Confession of Faith apply this text to the visible church; XXV.ii); Paul concludes, let those of us who think we stand, take heed lest we fall
The OT context of this wilderness apostasy makes Paul’s statements even stronger. In Exodus 4:31, the people of Israel “believed” and “bowed their heads and worshiped” when Moses told them of Yahweh and his plan to redeem them (the repetition--believed & worshiped--seems to emphasize the point of the rightness of their response).
In Ex. 14:31, just after the exodus, the people of Israel “feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in his servant Moses.” Again, repetition in the same verse: feared and believed.
These two texts together form sort of an inclusio around the whole exodus event. This is strong evidence against the Calvinist line that the redemption from Israel was only “physical” redemption, a deliverance from bondage in slavery to the Egyptians and thus merely a picture or symbol of the true “spiritual” redemption from the guilt and power of sin that God accomplishes in the lives of believers. Israel as a nation “believed”, “feared” and “worshiped” God. That is the state from which they fell in the wilderness. They began in faith, but they did not persevere.
Mike
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:39:52 -0600
From: “Rich Lusk”
Subject: Apostasy Passages
Jamison Galt wrote:
I’m helping a Covenant seminary professor, Robert Peterson, with research for a forthcoming book of his on Perseverance and Apostasy.
Just a question Jamison. I don’t know Petersen, so I’m wondering: Is he really open to rethinking the whole issue of apostasy? Or does he already pretty much have his answers in place before he begins his research? I’m curious as to what you’ve seen . . . .
RL
